Auto Team Selection Trial - TF2

by **GTFO. vito** » 17 Jun 2010, 12:18

As mentioned in the recent TF2 update http://store.steampowered.com/news/3928/ a server convar that forces all joining players to autoteam has been added to the game by Valve.

We have decided to trial this setting on TF2 #01 Rotation, TF2 #06 Lazytown and TF2 #07 Turbine / Fastlane until further notice. Once turned on, upon joining one of these servers, there will be no team selection offered and you will be automatically assigned to a team.

In a perfect world, the game would never need such an option, but there are increased instances of players joining and sitting in spec waiting to join the winning/better team and our admins cannot be on all servers at all times to police this. The setting will not stop anyone changing teams however please do not abuse or purposely attempt to circumvent the auto-assign setting by such means.

Of course, it goes without saying, that this setting may not be a perfect answer to the challenges of ensuring fair and balanced teams (as much as is reasonably possible) however that is the nature of a trial. We welcome any constructive and well reasoned feedback/comments in this thread and, at the end of the trial (which will be at a time decided by GTFO), we are likely to poll for final consensus on keeping the setting or otherwise.

PS - Constructive and reasoned feedback is not such gems as WTFOMG, u noobs,i hate this, i must always be on the team with my friends etc

by **GTFO. KARR** » 17 Jun 2010, 13:23

In principle it's a wonderful idea! You'd end up with a fairly balanced game and no team stacking as big clans couldn't throw 8 of their players together etc.

However, what actually happens is that the people who would of spec'd and joined their team will now just join....THEN enter spec or wait until someone leaves and then change anyway. Without some sort of "you can't change team for x mins" feature I can't see it stopping anyone EXCEPT the average person that wants to play with their friend but is too scared to change even though it wouldn't unbalance things if they did.

by **GTFO. vito** » 17 Jun 2010, 16:07

KARR wrote:..the people who would of spec'd and joined their team will now just join....THEN enter spec or wait until someone leaves and then change anyway.

We're keeping a close watch on this and it shouldn't be difficult spot "xxx was automatically assigned to Blu" and then "xxx joined team spectator." Under this system, people joining shouldn't be in spectator.

We'll all be keeping a close eye on this behaviour but, like I say above, we expect people not be doing this unless they want to attract wholly the wrong kind of attention from us. We expect this to be the exception though and not the rule as most regs and casual players will auto assign and play.

by **GTFO. Jamie** » 17 Jun 2010, 16:27

GTFO. vito wrote:
KARR wrote:..the people who would of spec'd and joined their team will now just join....THEN enter spec or wait until someone leaves and then change anyway.
We're keeping a close watch on this and it shouldn't be difficult spot "xxx was automatically assigned to Blu" and then "xxx joined team spectator." Under this system, people joining shouldn't be in spectator.

We'll all be keeping a close eye on this behaviour but, like I say above, we expect people not be doing this unless they want to attract wholly the wrong kind of attention from us. We expect this to be the exception though and not the rule as most regs and casual players will auto assign and play.

just to build on what Vito said above, we have received support for this move from several regular players on Lazytown already which is a good sign, and alot of people despise those who jump ship to the winning team, as im sure you do too.

We will trial the function to see if it makes GTFO a better place to play. We will have ongoing consultation on this and will invite anyone who has an opinion to provide their feedback here. This will all be considered when we make the decision to adopt it to all TF2 servers, or not.

by **r3loaded** » 17 Jun 2010, 16:51

Well, I joined badwater today, and was able to choose red instead of being forced to auto-team :?

by **GTFO. NachoDuck** » 17 Jun 2010, 17:01

r3loaded wrote:Well, I joined badwater today, and was able to choose red instead of being forced to auto-team

If you're referring to #09, this setting is currently only been trialled on servers #01, #06 and #07 as mentioned in the OP.

by **Panromir** » 17 Jun 2010, 18:45

It is, and its a pity that I have to say this, not working as it should.
People can still switch teams after having been assigned to one.

Evidence.

No, that wasnt just by accident.

by **GTFO. vito** » 17 Jun 2010, 18:59

Panromir wrote:It is, and its a pity that I have to say this, not working as it should.
People can still switch teams after having been assigned to one.

Like I said in the original post

The setting will not stop anyone changing teams however please do not abuse or purposely attempt to circumvent the auto-assign setting by such means

we expect people not be doing this unless they want to attract wholly the wrong kind of attention from us. We expect this to be the exception though and not the rule as most regs and casual players will auto assign and play

by **r3loaded** » 17 Jun 2010, 19:17

GTFO. NachoDuck wrote:
r3loaded wrote:Well, I joined badwater today, and was able to choose red instead of being forced to auto-team :?

If you're referring to #09, this setting is currently only been trialled on servers #01, #06 and #07 as mentioned in the OP.

Nope, I was on #01, and someone actually asked about why they were forced to auto-join just after I manually selected a team.

by **Crazyman** » 18 Jun 2010, 20:18

I like it, but only it has scramble.

Now it's just the same as before, one team totally overruns the other for the entire map. It should scramble after XX successful wins.

by **GTFO. Avenger** » 19 Jun 2010, 00:15

I have two sides:
Yes I think its a great idea, to stop people joining the winning team at the last moment and stopping large clan build ups.
But what if you just want to come on and join a team with your mate, just to chat or try out some tactics? - If we keep switching, u lot might start to get suspicious. I'm not sure how you could make a compromise for this.
Its not a big deal, but sometimes you just want to relax and play with a mate or work on some serious moves for tournaments - admittidly you could say just go and use another server, but...I dunno.
Anyways just some of me thoughts :]

by **NapZ** » 19 Jun 2010, 09:21

I totally disapprove this new system :
From my point of view, we all should be able to chose a team ourself, it was working well before - even if sometimes, I agree, there was some teamstacking - but actually it was occasional and rare. I used to play this way for 2 years and a half on your server, and it was great, lot of fun.
I do want to be able to chose a team by myself, and if there is some teamstacking, then an admin can still scramble teams or the game can still autobalance some guys. Moreover - as said before - now we can no longer decide to play with a friend in his team, because it's all random, so what can we do if we want to play with a buddy to have a bit of fun ? Praying and waiting for 45 more minutes ?
To me, have fun means total freedom in-game, being able to chose a team, the class we want to play, etc.

Here is my disapproval.

PS : And don't tell me "go play on another server", because I really do love GTFO #1 (that's why I keep playing on it since december 27th 2007 :P ), and that's why I want this server to stay just like it was.

by **GTFO. vito** » 19 Jun 2010, 09:47

Napz, thanks for your feedback, it's welcomed. That said, as per our disucssion on #1 yesterday, it's difficult to balance your argument when it seems, as disucssed yesterday, to only stand on "we all should be able to chose a team ourself" and/or "I do want to be able to chose a team by myself". I'm pleased you agree that prior to auto-assign there was some forced team stacking but I'm inclined to disagree with your "it was occasional and rare" point of view as this can only really be anecdotal rather than statistical. That said, if you've got something that proves the theory we're more than happy to openly discuss it.

Re playing with a firend, as is mentioned above, there is noting in the auto-assign that prevents you swapping teams should you wish to do so (other than at a time of a totally full server). What we do not want to see is direct circumvention of the auto-assign though. AA - this applies to your feedback also and thanks for taking the time to comment.

Crazyman - Thanks for the post. Your point reaally isn't on the merits of auto-assign as it's more about the balance of teams at certain points in time. We may choose, or not choose, to implement something that amends teams after xx successful wins but this isn't really directly applicable to auto-assign.

by **GTFO. Avenger** » 19 Jun 2010, 20:16

Thanks 4 the info Vito, I have only switched to spectate a couple of times to join a friends team, but never to use it just to swap to the winning team. After reading what you said another trace of thought popped into my head. I suppose its not a main concern but it is another reason for people moving teams. I have come across a few people and talking to various people who like to swap to the losing team to give them a hand (which I have also done in the past), so this will also need to be considered. There could be a moment when say 2 members of a clan decide to join the other team which also has another 2 members of thier clan it it, but for the pure reason of helping the losing team and we would need to make sure they weren't kicked because people thought they were team stacking. Maybe a rule needs to be made about team stacking on the losing side? As in It could be acceptable?

by **NapZ** » 19 Jun 2010, 20:27

"We may choose, or not choose, to implement something that amends teams after xx successful wins but this isn't really directly applicable to auto-assign."

That would be great ! But only on consecutive wins (I think you meant that).

For example, when a team won 5 times consecutively (in a certain lapse of time, for example 5 wins in less than 20-25 minutes) the server would automatically scramble teams.

I prefer this idea !

by **Panromir** » 20 Jun 2010, 12:23

Scrambling isnt good imho and no alternative to this. (Excuse me if this is a bit offtopic now)
Almost everytime an admin scrambled teams (multiple times!) one team still dominated the other. I have a feeling the "randomizing" effect of the scramble addon is rather bad.

Back to topic:
Now I saw some great, balanced matches, some greatly pissed players and some greatly unbalanced matches. It definately DID change something (in a positive way). Maybe together with such a scramble addon, it would do a good job. Maybe.

by **DataStorm** » 20 Jun 2010, 15:57

I should try a couple laps with those servers, to see how it goes... but I'm almost never on those servers.

by **GTFO. Jamie** » 20 Jun 2010, 16:49

DataStorm wrote:I should try a couple laps with those servers, to see how it goes... but I'm almost never on those servers.

it seems to be working well on lazytown, people arent sitting around in specs as soon as they join anymore and instead they are getting forced to a team and they just start playing.

by **GTFO. gungadin** » 20 Jun 2010, 22:54

Personally, I think this is the most logical and well thought out addition to the game settings valve have added in a long time. Bravo - let's have it on all the servers.

by **John** » 21 Jun 2010, 16:21

It doesn't seem to be effective. You get autoassigned after joining, but then you can go back to spectator and change team. Players should be autoassigned everytime when they try to choose team.

by **DataStorm** » 21 Jun 2010, 16:39

hmmz, good idea... maybe G can say if this is possible.

by **GTFO. vito** » 21 Jun 2010, 18:09

John wrote:It doesn't seem to be effective. You get autoassigned after joining, but then you can go back to spectator and change team. Players should be autoassigned everytime when they try to choose team.

From the original post above

The setting will not stop anyone changing teams however please do not abuse or purposely attempt to circumvent the auto-assign setting by such means.

by **GTFO. G** » 21 Jun 2010, 18:12

John wrote:Players should be autoassigned everytime when they try to choose team.

I don't think that will solve the problem, the players who are determined to switch team would constantly go spec/switch until the manage to get "autoassigned" to the team they want.

It's a tricky problem to solve

by **diz** » 21 Jun 2010, 19:47

I played 2 rounds on lazytown and I think it's working very well there. I'm not sure about other maps, but LT was good with it. :D

-diz

by **GTFO. gungadin** » 22 Jun 2010, 12:24

GTFO. G wrote:
John wrote:Players should be autoassigned everytime when they try to choose team.

I don't think that will solve the problem, the players who are determined to switch team would constantly go spec/switch until the manage to get "autoassigned" to the team they want.

It's a tricky problem to solve :?

There are a number of mods that enable the server to keep track of how many team changes a player has made. I've certainly seen these in action to stop multiple team swapping per connection. Admittedly they may just reconnect, but I think then it will be a lot more obvious in logs such that complaints may be upheld.

by **>m2B! H@wT** » 29 Jun 2010, 22:29

I have not been playing TF2 on rotation 1 as much as I would like to because of life (it happens... lol) but I really love this when I have had the chance to play.

I used to get pretty fed up with the team stacking by the regulars in server 1. It would bore the hell out of me purely because if you are on the stacked team it's so easy to roll through a team with auto respawn, and If you are on the other side it becomes a rape fest.

The few Times I have played since this was implimented, there have been some great matches that were really well fought out.

I personally believe the benefits outweight the cons. I love playing with my mates, but I will happily sacrifice that for a fairer match where you actually have to think about which class you chose and how to win rather then just waking to death or strolling to an easy win.....

Just my opinion though....

by **WhizzUK** » 15 Jul 2010, 07:45

I have had the pleasure of playing under this new system and I must say it is much better than the old (EVIL) one, Firstly for some reason I am finding it easier to see who is jumping in and out of spec... Oh wait no that's coz I have ran out of Strong-Bow, all joking aside I know it wont stop people from trying to avoid the balance but hey that's what we are here for, Another + is that nobody seems to be complaining about being balanced. At least valve have started to take the whole team balance issue a little more seriously. It has a big thumbs up from me, :mrgreen:

by **DataStorm** » 15 Jul 2010, 08:25

I've been on a server where some1 tried to spec jump and join the old team, he was then automatically put back in the team he was "balanced" into. Also a warning in chat was issued that if he kept on trying, 3rd time was a small ban (30 minutes I believe).

As for the auto-team assign... its indeed going without much "noise" from the players about it.

by **santaclaus** » 15 Jul 2010, 23:03

Ah i was looking for this thread in TF2 section.

The idea and the motive for the autojoin are good.
I guess the purpose of this trial were to :
- prevent team staking
- balance teams (?)

Team stacking

However since it's possible to circumvent it and actually some players / regulars are already doing it. It's only a matter of time before the team stacking comes back.

A better system would be to scramble the teams directly at the beginning of first round.

http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=683725

Balance

When a lot of regulars are playing , the teams are quite balanced.
The problem is outside the RushHour.
The autojoin system by itself isn't enough, a better balancing plugin (without reserved slot immunity) would be a good asset.

http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=795723

by **GTFO. Unflux** » 16 Jul 2010, 00:15

santaclaus wrote:... stuff ...

From what I have seen of the automated joining system on the game servers it is implemented, there has been little fuss made over this new plugin addition. Obviously as you have mentioned there are the odd few who attempt to circumvent the system and are either moved or left to it. Team stacking will never be completely irradicated from GTFO and there is little point attempting to continuously balance a game as this would simply result in continous statlemates. One team has to win, either through teamwork or "stacking".

Overall though I believe the plugin has been a success.

by **MissFranky** » 16 Jul 2010, 08:00

I have pretty much stopped playing on servers with auto-assign on. I hate it. I don't like the idea of being forced into a team and if I wanted to play with total strangers I can just play anywhere tbh.

And from what I have seen it doesn't work. It doesn't stop people from switching teams at the start at all. They do so frequently when no admins are on. It doesn't stop clan stacking, it doesn't balance out teams. It does frustrate people like myself who do try to stick to the rules (even the silly ones) while the rest is free to pick a team at will.
And yes, I know, "if an admin sees this, they will be dealt with". But even without auto-assign the servers with admins on were fine (with the possible exception of 2fort), it is the servers without admins that were and still are a problem.

I don't see how auto-assign is really solving any problems at all.

by **GTFO. Jamie** » 16 Jul 2010, 09:56

GTFO. snuggles wrote:
santaclaus wrote:... stuff ...

Overall though I believe the plugin has been a success.

i agree with this too.

The majority of responses about it have been positive and whilst it may not be perfect, it does help. One or two people may still hate the idea but i think it is a plugin which should stay.

by **GTFO. vito** » 16 Jul 2010, 14:34

MF - Thanks for the feedback and some of the points you make are well reasoned. We specifically never put it on every sever so people had the choice to play where it wasn't used (which you've taken up so that's good

). In terms of playing with strangers it's reasonable to expect that most pubs will contain a fair degreee of them so the auto-assign really does not make too much of a difference in that respect in so far as there will still be strangers there whether the auto-assign is or not. I'm not sure if you really mean the issue is that you cannot, on specific servers, specifically choose a team with your friends in it rather than you are forced to play with strangers.

You are right that it doesn't stop people from switching teams at the start and we made that point in the OP. That said, we also said we did not want people specifically circumventing this so if yourself, or anyone else, has any evidence of this going on when we are not around we're more than happy to look into it further. As you'll know, we actively welcome this type of feedback from our players, on every form of infringement of our guidelines, when admins are not around.

One point of disagreement is on your point on "even without auto-assign the servers with admins on were fine (with the possible exception of 2fort)". We haven't implemented this on 2fort but if you think it is required for when admins are on we will certainly look at it. Where we have implemented it we have done so to work towards diminishing increased instances of players joining and sitting in spec waiting to join the winning/better team, where admins are on or not. The setting is there to support the team selection when admins are there as much as it is for when they are not. Like we said in the OP, in a perfect world, the game would never need such an option but unfortunately it does.

We don't think there is a 100% perfect solution to the issue but we do beleive this is a step in the right direction. As snuggs says above "Team stacking will never be completely irradicated" but we're pleased to have heard many view points.

Going by the overall feedback here, in-game and in the chat it certainly has been more postive than negative feedback. If you think there is something we can do to tweak or improve it then we'd welcome any ideas that will improve the experience for everyone.

by **santaclaus** » 23 Jul 2010, 22:16

Team stacking is back.

"mp_allowspectators" isn't that working on TF2 ?

by **GTFO. Unflux** » 23 Jul 2010, 23:32

santaclaus wrote:Team stacking is back.

"mp_allowspectators" isn't that working on TF2 ?

Unfortunately the admins require spectator slots to view/monitor "abusers".

by **santaclaus** » 24 Jul 2010, 20:29

GTFO. snuggles wrote:
santaclaus wrote:Team stacking is back.

"mp_allowspectators" isn't that working on TF2 ?

Unfortunately the admins require spectator slots to view/monitor "abusers".

It would be really cool if you use mp_allowspectators.

Since when i've said that Team stacking is back i didn't mean that there was one player switching at start, it's actually more like 5 ~ 6 players and they're usually not the weakest.
Also this trend is spreading faster than the swine flu.

I don't know exactly which plugins you have but any admin's swaping command would bypass "mp_allowspectators 1".

As a final measure you could always use :

http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=640689

Be sure though to modify the source to edit the immunity flag.

by **Orv** » 24 Jul 2010, 21:14

It's far from just admins who use spectator for the correct reasons.
Alot of people use spectator to record demos of hackers. And no, you can't say "Ask an admin to come" because admins are not always available, and quite often the spectator demo made by a kind player on the server is the proof that lets us nail the cheating bastard.
Removing spectator is not the solution to stopping team stacking. It would do more harm then good.

by **DataStorm** » 24 Jul 2010, 22:40

indeed, I did make in the past a lot of demo's of players after most admins where to bed or AFK. not being able to go spec would prevent that. Also, being able to check someone out yourself and see that that person is not hacking is way more working for the server imo.

Yes someone using it to get to the other team or counter the auto-balance is a problem. Its hard to automate for it, cos if that person is checking out somebody, and then wants to rejoin his team but that team has 1 more than the other team.... he really cannot help that at that moment, and I would not expect from that player to wait till his old team is equal or lower in number of players.

by **John** » 29 Jul 2010, 21:24

Played a server where this auto team selection is enabled. But it doesn't make any difference, because it's predictable because of the unbalance limit. Result is the same, players are sitting in spectator and are waiting till there are less players on the team which they want to join.

by **GTFO. fission_chips** » 30 Jul 2010, 09:25

from what I've seen lately is people leaving because they don't like losing...hardly teamstacking.

Yesterday playing server#1 on goldrush we got rolled on stage 1 and 2 finally defending stage 3. When we got the chance to attack we won stage 1 and there were calls for !votescramble, "team stacking fags" etc..

Although I wasn't a fan of the autoteam selection, It's not too bad so far. The hardest thing to change will be peoples attitudes to losing!