TEAM STACKING discussion

[Evil-Dragon]

Hi, i just got global banned from GTFO servers and i have no idea why. Can someone explain why i got banned? (i didn't do anything wrong that i know about)

The ban reason says "Ignoring Admins" but there were no admins present or giving any instruction that i ignored.

Ban is here: http://www.gtfogaming.co.uk/bans/index. ... mid&Submit

[GTFO. G]

I was informed by an ex admin to come to the server to see the team stacking by TPF. I joined, saw you all had stacked red. I asked you all to break up. Was ignored, when I used admin chat you must have copped on I was infact an admin. Pilot swapped team, and I manually swapped another one of you. Teams were then even.

I went on to explain that you shouldnt grief players who accuse you of team stacking and request you break up, because they simply come to an admin to try and get it sorted out. And with enough complaints bans would be handed out.

You proceeded to change team, to stack up again and unbalance the teams. I then told you you were one of the most brain dead players I've come accross, and gave you a 1 day ban.

[GTFO. al]

and for those who are a bit slow -

IF YOU TEAM STACK ON GTFO SERVERS WITH MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN CLANS, YOU WILL BE BANNED. SPLIT UP OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES

[Evil-Dragon]

That's fair enough, i just looked over the demo i was recording at the time and saw the message. I never saw it at the time and apologise. Did not know that team stacking was against the rules but will know better in future.

[Acchy]

When one clan decides to stack on one team ( as -TFP- have been doing ) it becomes instantly one sided. I noticed that all the top ranked players then wanted to be on the same side, which then lead to a complete walk over for the blue team. You basically ruin the game and make people leave.

Evil Dragon, you were twice auto balanced on to the other team and twice went direct to spectator and waited for a chance to join your clan mates.

You are not showing in the following screenshot but you are also on the blue team.

[GTFO. ObscuredByCows]

Just so you know, team stacking is not allowed because it can often lead to the clan playing with each other and not the rest of their team. Example being medics only healing/ubering clan members. Also other regulars on the servers often stop playing if they see that they are up against 6 or so from a single clan.

[Evil-Dragon]

Like i said, i had no idea it was against the rules (in fact i couldn't see it listed on the rules page anywhere)

We very often stick together because we're good team players and know each others abilities. From now on i'll leave auto balance to do it's work and join the team with the least TPF players. It won't be as fun but i'll live with it.

[naknA]

I'd take those rules with a grain of salt.

Admins also ban/kick for things that are common sense for most people. Which is a good thing, of course.

[cocos]

jeez you may as well say "NO UBERING FRIENDS" I think there were about 5 TPF's on there maybe? i dunno something like that, thats a 1/6 of total players, your telling me 5/6 cant deal with a group of friends playing a game together? surely that goes against the whole point of TEAM Fortress.

[GTFO. Unflux]

jeez you may as well say "NO UBERING FRIENDS" I think there were about 5 TPF's on there maybe? i dunno something like that, thats a 1/6 of total players, your telling me 5/6 cant deal with a group of friends playing a game together? surely that goes against the whole point of TEAM Fortress.

You fail at math. If 1/6 of a team are TPF that means 2/6 of the SAME team are not leaving 3/6 (otherwise known as 1/2) on the opposing team.

Now although we activly promote team play (like you said, TEAM FORTRESS), when you get a bunch of clan members all on one team and working together whilst the opposing team is not, it is difficult for the opposing team to overcome this (especially as the clan team numbers grow).

Obviously this is not a major issue when there are a couple of clan members on the same team, however when the numbers grow it becomes an issue.

Most clans that play on the GTFO servers understand this rule and why we have it. If you have any major issues with this rule feel free to play on other servers.

[GTFO. G]

jeez you may as well say "NO UBERING FRIENDS"

You're correct, I might as well say that. I have seen such lame behaviour where medics dont heal or uber anyone but their friends. On a public server this doesn't help the team, and is poor play.

[Pilot v6.3]

Do you guys know how hard it is to win as Blu on a fast respawn Goldrush

Besides I'm very surprised that this suddenly comes up after all those months we play on the GTFO servers, and sometimes there was even an admin around that didn't say anything about the team stacking.

What team stacking does on a fast-respawn server is making it more challenging for everybody, if the teams would be perfectly "balanced (As in equal teamwork in both teams)" Red would always win every single time and it would make the server quite dull.

I still can't believe why we get reported, this has never happened before and usually the enemy team doesn't even mind, probably because of the fast respawn time which is a great stress-relief

On a side note I cannot see the rules page when I join the server, or whatever there's supposed to be loading when you just join the server (It's just a blank page at me)

[GTFO. G]

Do you guys know how hard it is to win as Blu on a fast respawn Goldrush

Your stacked team is doing well in the screenshot posted by Acchy, 13 - 0 to blue.

Besides I'm very surprised that this suddenly comes up after all those months we play on the GTFO servers, and sometimes there was even an admin around that didn't say anything about the team stacking.

TPF behaviour has been discussed previously on the public forums, and in our private members only forum.

[Pilot v6.3]

Do you guys know how hard it is to win as Blu on a fast respawn Goldrush

Is that somehow a justification for stacking red?

Actually we never stack Red, whenever the server restarts we join Blu, resulting in either a win or a loss we end up in the Red team.

The reason we teamstack is because we want to spice up Goldrush because when we don't teamstack you always know Blu loses and Red wins, you can see it happening everytime.

[GTFO. G]

Actually we never stack Red, whenever the server restarts we join Blu, resulting in either a win or a loss we end up in the Red team.

Editted my post above (you may want to read it), when I joined you were all red.

[Pilot v6.3]

fff ye ok

[GTFO. G]

If you don't believe me well you can never get that many points in a single round, so we obviously we're playing Blu before.

I do, simply referring to your statement at how hard it is to win as blue, yet in Acchy's screenshot your nicely stacked blue team is winning 13-0...

Anyway, it's over and now you know we dont tollerate team stacking.

Considering I came to the server, issued two warnings, swapped players, and the stacking continued, you don't have much grounds for complaining about the consequences.

[Pilot v6.3]

It's the only time we ever won twice in a row at Stage 3 and thats because our entire team was working together (And we had the best setup of classes) while the enemy team didn't have any teamwork, not even heavies or medics in the beginning and way too much snipers and pyro's.

If you've been playing on the server more often you would know team-stacking changes nothing when the rest of your team doesn't co-operate and to win you also need the luck that the enemy team has too much snipers / no engineers / no heavies and medics

A great example is this vid I made a long time ago, it shows how the enemy team loses because they suddenly didn't have engineers anymore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EwhvxMkCpo
You can see that our entire team is working together, and not just our clan.

Well ofcourse the bad thing what I find about this rule is that you guys want perfectly equal teams but the problem is that Red is closer to the defence area and can easily defend it if the teams are equal, and Red will just win 90% of the time, there will be no spice in the game.

I can't really show you more so I deeply suggest you to play on the Goldrush server for a while to see how things flow there.

--

All in all I understand your statement (But I do disagree) and we will follow the rules.

[dx.]

Pilot, I play on Goldrush fairly often so I´d say I know how things flow there.
You guys certainly have my sympathy for your coordinated and well executed teamplay, but when the odds are stacked too much it´s not really fun for the other team.
I was there yesterday for a brief time - it was slaughter and close to impossible to get a foot in the door against 5-6 TFP people playing on one team (esp. with the aforementioned effect on other highranked players).
I didn´t mind it personally, went spec, rolled a smoke and decided to quit shortly after in favour of a different server with a more balanced setup.

Now usually it isn´t really a problem on Goldrush as you said, but 5-6 people make a hell of a difference - they sure did the other night.
Again, I wasn´t particularly bothered and just looked for another server.
On a sidenote : think that was the second time I saw stage 3 on there.

I have no gripes whatsoever with people playing with their friends / clanmates, just try to understand how the other folks feel when they get bumrushed to infinity and beyond not once or twice but multiple times in a row.
Fine for one or two games to spice things up, but when it becomes common practice it´s not exactly "spicing things up" but turning into frustration for the outgunned team.

Tough call, I understand both views; but as a non-clan player I tend to favour GTFO´s stance on the matter.

[GTFO. Gash]

PERFECT TIME TO SAY

REMOVE FAST RESPAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DOOO ITTTTTT!!!

[dx.]

Isn´t #10 offering "vanilla" respawn timers ? Although that´s a rotation.
I like the fast respawn, admittedly it leads to an easier time for the defending team - on the other hand it´s even more rewarding if you still manage to sneak in a cap now and then.

[GTFO. G]

PERFECT TIME TO SAY

REMOVE FAST RESPAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DOOO ITTTTTT!!!

This hasnt anything to do with this topic, and as said we have normal respawn servers...

[Pilot v6.3]

Pilot, I play on Goldrush fairly often so I´d say I know how things flow there.
You guys certainly have my sympathy for your coordinated and well executed teamplay, but when the odds are stacked too much it´s not really fun for the other team.
I was there yesterday for a brief time - it was slaughter and close to impossible to get a foot in the door against 5-6 TFP people playing on one team (esp. with the aforementioned effect on other highranked players).
I didn´t mind it personally, went spec, rolled a smoke and decided to quit shortly after in favour of a different server with a more balanced setup.

Now usually it isn´t really a problem on Goldrush as you said, but 5-6 people make a hell of a difference - they sure did the other night.
Again, I wasn´t particularly bothered and just looked for another server.
On a sidenote : think that was the second time I saw stage 3 on there.

I have no gripes whatsoever with people playing with their friends / clanmates, just try to understand how the other folks feel when they get bumrushed to infinity and beyond not once or twice but multiple times in a row.
Fine for one or two games to spice things up, but when it becomes common practice it´s not exactly "spicing things up" but turning into frustration for the outgunned team.

Tough call, I understand both views; but as a non-clan player I tend to favour GTFO´s stance on the matter.

Yes I understand our clan has grown too big, and thus we will split from now on to keep the teams balanced.

If there is anything else that disturbs you on your mind now please post it to prevent further problems.

[shadowgalaxy]

First of all, there is a lot of interesting discussion in this thread but it's buried under the Bans / Suspect Players section. Could the relevant posts be moved to the Team Fortress 2 Forum?

Is the rule against team stacking a recent addition? I only learned about this recently. I haven't seen it anywhere and it's not on the Server Rules page.

Team stacking happens all the time. Whether it's by clan mates or server regulars it's very common. It's just easier to notice if clan members do it. I don't really get why team stacking is forbidden for clans but not for other skilled players. A big part of the fun in TF2 for me (and I guess for other people as well) is playing with people I know and who can teamwork. That means it's natural to join the same team your friens play in.

Is there a set limit of players in one team that is considered team stacking? Would three players on one team and none in the other be against the rules? In a 32 player server would those three players really make that much of a difference?

off topic:

Pilot, you should try server #10 if you want to play later stages of Dustbowl and Goldrush more regurarly. In my opinion, Attack/Defence maps aren't playable with fast respawn. Dustbowl, Steel and payload maps are boring when a team wins the map once in a blue moon.

[GTFO. al]

if people in clans want to stack teams they can buy their own servers and play there. GTFO servers aren't to be used as a clan practice ground. this has always been the case.

2 or 3 members is generally fine. but if you have 5, 6, 7, 8 all trying to play on the one team it generally destroys the game and won't be tolerated.

[dx.]

Yes I understand our clan has grown too big, and thus we will split from now on to keep the teams balanced.

If there is anything else that disturbs you on your mind now please post it to prevent further problems.

Nothing is "disturbing" me at all, I was merely pointing at the flipside of things

[shad0w_n]

jeez you may as well say "NO UBERING FRIENDS"

You're correct, I might as well say that. I have seen such lame behaviour where medics dont heal or uber anyone but their friends. On a public server this doesn't help the team, and is poor play.

I agree with G cause once i was burning as a demoman and i ran to a medic and he was healing a SPY and i yell medic medic he stares at me while im dying from the burn and he still dosent heal me until i die. Many medics are acting like retards healing full health peaple that stand on one spot, this makes me get really pissed. I suggest more people doing that should get banned for being fags!!!

[shad0w_n]

First of all, there is a lot of interesting discussion in this thread but it's buried under the Bans / Suspect Players section. Could the relevant posts be moved to the Team Fortress 2 Forum?

Is the rule against team stacking a recent addition? I only learned about this recently. I haven't seen it anywhere and it's not on the Server Rules page.

Team stacking happens all the time. Whether it's by clan mates or server regulars it's very common. It's just easier to notice if clan members do it. I don't really get why team stacking is forbidden for clans but not for other skilled players. A big part of the fun in TF2 for me (and I guess for other people as well) is playing with people I know and who can teamwork. That means it's natural to join the same team your friens play in.

Is there a set limit of players in one team that is considered team stacking? Would three players on one team and none in the other be against the rules? In a 32 player server would those three players really make that much of a difference?

off topic:

Pilot, you should try server #10 if you want to play later stages of Dustbowl and Goldrush more regurarly. In my opinion, Attack/Defence maps aren't playable with fast respawn. Dustbowl, Steel and payload maps are boring when a team wins the map once in a blue moon.

True, cause teamwork is way funner than lame noobs like those medics that i posted about, and i think clans should play in same team but not too many like maybe u can make a limit or someting ( e.g max clan members in 1 team is 3)

[Echelon]

I just wanna add something.

Sometimes, even we GTFOers stack a team. BUT - that doesn't mean other clans can do it. It may sound unfair, but it's really simple:

1. We (GTFO Clan) do not practice together as we are not a competitive clan. This means we aren't organized at all, so it really doesn't matter if there are 10 GTFO admins on the same team. For all we know, this team might even be worse

2. It's our servers.

I also noticed that our rules say nothing about team stacking. However, the clan WAS warned, swapped etc, so they got enough warnings before they got banned/kicked.

We will put this in the rules, clearly it's needed.

[shadowgalaxy]

I still don't understand the motives behind this rule. Have you received complaints from players that clan X is team stacking and ruining my play experience? You mentioned prohibiting clan practice. What sort of practice can you possible get from playing in 32-person, fast respawn, crits enabled servers? I can't speak for other clans but playing with my clanmates is purely for fun and not for practice.

Other servers have more relaxed policies against team stacking. What exactly makes it a bannable offence in GTFO? Is it really driving people away from your servers? A lot of casual clans have been formed from the friendships gained in playing on GTFO servers. This "witch hunt" against clans discourages community forming. A policy of "you can't play with your friends" can't be beneficial to your servers. I have already heard a few people mention that they are going to remove their clan tags while playing on GTFO servers.

I have seen a plugin that scrambles teams randomly which is initated either by an admin or with a rtv-style player vote. Could that be an answer to unbalanced (in terms of skill level) teams? If the majority of players think that a clan is ruining the game play, they could just vote for a scramble.

Sorry about this rant, but I'm very passionate about this game and I would urge you to reconsider this policy more carefully.

[Echelon]

We don't expect everyone to understand all the rules - as long as they are followed. It's already been explained WHY we have that rule, all we can do is to repeat what's already said.

And one reason that makes GTFO servers way better then many other servers out there, is that we don't pack them with one million plugins.

[naknA]

I can't speak for other clans but playing with my clanmates is purely for fun and not for practice.

I'd say it's because people who play in clans are often more skilled than your average pubber.

[GTFO. Jamie]

it also encourages clan members to stick to their own, for example heal and only uber their clanmates....

Like on DODS, i hate teamstacking with a passion as it really shows through, when a group of about 4 or 5 players are all strategically camping or rushing the same spot, you have no hope in trying to persuade your team to help you....

And too often i join to see 4 or 5 clan buddies on, using both snipers, and the mg too

[shadowgalaxy]

it also encourages clan members to stick to their own, for example heal and only uber their clanmates....

Most medics aren't that skilled. They can't switch the healing ray fast enough and they usually heal only one person. You don't see them getting punished.

Which is better for a medic:

1) Healing everyone in need but focusing on and ubering the players who make the most difference.
2) Healing and ubering everyone equally.

In any given map there are only a handful of players who know how to win. It should be perfectly appectable for a medic to concentrate on players who can advance the team, take out sentries and capture the intelligence.

I have no problem with this rule as long as it doesn't prevent three (or even four) players from the same clan playing and having fun on the same team. I agree that 5+ players is too much.

[GTFO. Jamie]

its only used in context, for example if i see several members stacked i probably wont move them unless they are creating a unfair advantage....

But that said, as soon as the other team needs a extra player, i'll switch one of the clan people to balance it first before moving anyone else

[The Warden]

This is an interesting thread, just noticed it, havent been on the forums in a while.

I've read most of it, (sorry some it it is frankly pointless bickering) and some good points raised.

However, unless I missed it, there seems to be a major factor being missed here.

Whatever Zeyork or anyone says, TPF (as an example) was never much of a clan. I wore the tag for quite a while, and it was little more than a badge of friendship in my view. I think the same can be said of many many many so called clans. I once entirely fabricated the clan 'överladdar', we had all of 5 members, 3 regulars, and yes, we played on the same team on public servers (GTFO included). Once or twice people complained about a 'team stack' but we hadnt done anything different to normal. Does anyone really think we suddenly started playing together at the same time we started wearing the same tag? No. We'd been joining the same games and the same teams for months before.

The point I'm waffling towards is that players who are steam friends and play together regularly will obviously join the same teams much of the time, and will favour healing and particularly ubering, those players. I do. I did when I was 'in' TPF. I will continue to do it. The only difference is when I dont wear the same tag as my friends, other people cant see what's going on. I make it sound somewhat underhand, but this is an absolutely commonplace occurence in TF2.

I havent made my point very clearly but hopefully someone gets what I'm saying. I can understand the arguments against the stacking of genuine competetive clans, but policing them shouldnt be at the expense of small teams of friends growing on GTFO servers. The community/friends side of play has been the thing that's kept me interested in TF2 so consistently.

[Echelon]

As Jamie said:

I only do something about it if i notice that the clan is organized and that it affects the game. If they are on the same team and nothing is changed, i don't really care.

if i see several members stacked i probably wont move them unless they are creating a unfair advantage....

[GTFO. Cole Scuttle]

Just late update here. *ANZAC* Fission_chips called my attention to a massive teamstack on - you guessed it - Goldrush last night. With eight players from [Editotaku] clan stacking blue, it was a walkover. There was a 'mini-stack' of sorts going on on the red team, in the form of GG clan, but as you can see from the screenshot, they were nothing like as organised or as able to dominate. I suppose this goes to show that you can't fight fire with fire.

http://gtfogaming.co.uk/files/teamstack01.jpg

Needless to say, the [Editotaku] clowns all got kicked and I asked the GG guys nicely to split up, and they complied.

[Echelon]

Good work. Did you warn them first?

[GTFO. Cole Scuttle]

No, but there was no other possible resolution but to remove them. Couldn't split eight players across two teams like that without another stack occurring on its own. Plus, manually team-swapping them would have been just as tricky. They knew exactly what they were doing when they stacked on a public server, so they've no cause to cry.